Round 1, Match 4:
NEO vs LELOUCHE LAMPEROUGE!!!!!!
Turf: The Matrix.
Previous Round Winner: Samus Aran! Thought there would be more of an argument for Freakazoid than there was...all you freakafans, do me a favor and don't freak out until the overturn round!
Neo only sees numbers. So, I dont think the eye contact thing will quite work. Also, Neo wears glasses, which I think can be made to resist the commands. If all else fails, Neo's strong will should be able to stop command at first, and kill Lelouche Lamperouge. Neo can fly, dodge bullets and do martial arts. So combat wise I dont think Lelouche will stand a chance, as long as Neo can resist mind control for a period of time.
ReplyDeleteI don't see how mind control that requires eye contact can possibly work in the Matrix...so as long as we are in Neo's turf, Neo should be able to easily resist Lelouch's Geass...
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ReplyDeleteAll these one-sided rounds going in the opposite favor...Okay, I'll go with Lelouche this time, and champion the opposite guy from the one I think would win.
ReplyDeleteFor all Neo's powers, he has no plan for how to deal with anything. Machines? Improvise. Get out of a hostile program? Improvise. Old Master type being captured and tortured by having to listen to Hugo Weaving snarl at him? Improvise. Zion being destroyed? Improvise, improvise, improvise, make a deal with machines. The guy has barely any skills with planning, because he feels like everything will work out for him anyway. And, to a certain degree, he's right. After all, as Dune, The Matrix, Durarara!! and many other works have taught us, being a god is a SERIOUS advantage.
Lelouche, as we've seen, can plan for any level of improvisation. He cannot normally be negotiated with, because he already knows he's going to win. Lelouche has never been defeated in a fair fight, because there has never been a fair or even fight where he's concerned. No matter what powers anyone has, Lelouche gains his victories not through a show of strength or superior skill, but by outmaneuvering his opponent and then telling them once they have no options that they can go screw. Even when he loses, it's because he's been outgambitted, not because he's lost combatively. Most importantly, no matter the improvisation or power level, Lelouche has already planned for it. The improvisation and the powers are already a part of his plan.
On top of which, Lelouche thinks outsmarting and outwitting gods and people far above his power and station is *fun*.
So many of the posts before mine focus on a straight power matchup. That would NEVER happen. No matter what Neo does, Lelouche can plan for it. He doesn't even have to geass Neo, he can geass Trinity, or Link, or Morpheus, or any of his friends and then carry out his plan that way if he has to geass anyone (and he doesn't). It's not like Neo's the only person in the Matrix, after all.
So...yeah. Lelouche. Yay that.
What we need to remember here, is that even with all of Leloche's planning, Neo can still improvise around it. Also, all of the plans, all of the Geass hits to other people in the Matrix, all of it has to take place IN the Matrix, in a place that Neo can control pretty darned well. I would say if he can fight Agent Smith at the end, and the entire environment and all of the people are Agent Smiths who want to kill him, even given the "Mcninja corollary" of shitty ninja fighters who fight en masse, we still see someone who can fight Lelouche and win. He can win when the whole environment is going against him. He can win when he gets shot and dies because, in the Matrix, he is Jesus, and he comes back to life, blocks bullets, and jumps into programs to make them explode.
ReplyDeleteAll the strategizing in the world will not allow Lelouche to win this.
Also, quick point here, Lelouche cannot utilize the Geass from Knightmare to Knightmare, so that says that layers of technological interference get in the way of the power. I would argue that the Matrix would offer that same level of interference, so Lelouche could only enact a Geass strategy if he were able to, Like Syfer, get into the ship and Geass people in the real world. Then we would have to assume (a big assumption) that the suggestions would make their way through the digitization of the Matrix.
There are too many holes in the Lelouche plans out everything strategy. Take out one block, they all fall down, and Neo slow motion punches Lelouche into a cyber mountain.
Yup, Oliver's last "quick" point says it all. Matrix turf advantage, has to be a win for Neo.
ReplyDeleteI'm invoking Quick Ben's Law here, which states that even gods can't get around a good, well-executed plan when the person dealing with them is smart enough. Neo controls all of it, yes, but he relies too much on that control, to the point that he's easily blinded to things. It takes him about four hours of movie to figure out he's being manipulated, and another two before the machines kill most of his friends and arrange a ceasefire with him, and even then most of both worlds get proper fucked. A proper plan could take him down easy. Lelouch can't Geass from Knightmare to Knightmare, but that's because he's not in close proximity-- it's not technological interference, it's that things like eye direct eye contact don't pass through solid matter in giant fighting robots.
ReplyDeleteAnd finally, if Lelouch is fighting Neo in the Matrix, he's already on that ship, and Trinity and Morpheus are already his puppets. And at the very least, he can just deactivate the Matrix and reboot it without Neo's powers. It's already been proven the Matrix can be rebooted and fixed, then it's just a minor programming error to take away the powers the machines gave him in the first place.
Also, if the past few weeks of comic reading have taught me anything, even someone who controls everything in a universe, the afterlife, and all the lands in between isn't safe from a well-executed Xanatos Gambit.
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ReplyDeleteI hate to win this on a technicality, but
ReplyDeleterule #4 says "No preparation time is permitted to the fighters"
This says to me that Lelouche cannot go around long before this match and build an army of digitized geassed warriors, or shut down and reboot the Matrix.
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ReplyDeleteShutting down and rebooting the matrix would be part of the fight. That doesn't require prior planning whatsoever, it just requires someone to take it offline. It can be done if one figures out how, and figuring out how is simply a matter of intelligence and skill, both of which Lelouche has, and Neo has less of (if his constant astonishment is anything to go by). No prior planning. And who said anything about digitized geassed warriors, exactly? It's just the crew of the ship, not some army.
ReplyDeleteSo, in the words of the great Malcolm Tucker from In The Loop, allow me to pop a jaunty little bonnet on your technicality...*
Moving on, since the rules don't allow for him to do anything outside of the arena, I'll concede that he can't move around and gank the crew, but allow me to remind you of this: People inside the Matrix who gain sustained conditions inside the Matrix carry them around outside of the Matrix. That's how Smith propagates his virus. It's also why people get injured, yes, even Neo. Since the precedent's been called, we sort of have to posit allies, so Lelouche could easily geass them anyway. I mean, it affects brainwaves for the most part, and that's the bit that's connected to the Matrix. If Smith can make clones of himself by spreading through other people, and Neo can retain injuries because he received them in the Matrix, Geass works, too. In fact, given the size of the staging area and the fact that the crews run around in fetish gear, it's remarkably easy to find other crews and use them to his advantage, and there are always crews in the Matrix. Geass problem solved.
If you want to make this a fight about rules, then allow me to quote rule number six, omniscience and omnipresence are omitted for the purposes of a fair (okay, in consistency with the earlier points sort-of fair) fight. So Neo's funky Matrix-vision? Yeah, not happening. In fact, his interconnectedness on some level is shut off for the fight, due to the rules. Everything else anyone else can pretty much do, from stopping bullets to slowing down time. As has been seen in the movies, if someone figures out how to manipulate the Matrix, they can. All they have to remember is that there is no spoon.
Given how quick Lelouche figures out just about everything else (It took him what, one episode, two max to become Zero and start fucking shit up?), this isn't going to be hard for him.
*...and I'm not spoiling the rest of this quote. Seriously, go see the movie. It's brilliant.
Okay. Point of Fact: Lelouche Lamprouge near the end of Code Geass successfully Geasses GOD with absolutely ZERO prep time in order to prevent The Emperor and his Dead Mother from taking over the world with a plot that would eliminate all human free will. Lelouche orders God to wipe them out. His duty done, he then goes on to save the world with the most epic Thanatos Gambit/Zero Approval Rating maneuver EVER.
ReplyDeleteQED: Neo is not nearly as powerful as the Judeo-Christian God OR the Code Geass variant of God. Lelouche orders Neo to surrender OR to follow all of Lelouche's orders until the end of time. Fight over. Lelouche wins.
I argue here that Neo can win because Lelouche is, ostensibly, like Smith. Sure, Lelouche is "smarter", but is he more effective? He may take down a God, but Smith literally becomes the planet. For all Lelouche's power, there are times when he seems to be defeated. The only one who comes close to defeating Smith is Neo.
ReplyDeleteLet's look at the end of this movie.
Smith stands over a broken Neo and says "Why? Why do you persist?" Neo says "Because I choose to!" and punches Smith hard in the face. You see, if you give Lelouche the same powers as Neo, and take away Omnipresence and Omniscience, it becomes that fight with Smith, with Gregorian chants and all. The one tool that Lelouche has that could turn the tide in his favor, the Geass, eliminates choice. The problem is, Neo is the one who chooses. That has been his ability throughout the whole series, his defining trait.
He can resist the Geass and win this battle.
Or, this battle becomes so epic, that Lelouche literally connects to the source and becomes the ultimate evil a la Smith, and Neo merges with him so they both annihilate. Either way, Lelouche does not go on to fight another day. His anger will be quenched by Neo's calm.
So I really argue, if this fight goes all the way, which is the way Lelouche likes it, all the way or nothing, then it ends with them merging, annihilating eachother, but leaving behind transcendance.
Amazing argument, Oliver. Thanks!
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ReplyDeleteBad Example. Lelouche loses throughout the course of Code Geass due to two things:
ReplyDelete1: Suzaku Kururugi is capable of undoing ANYTHING by virtue of Spinning. ANY time someone is going to get a decisive victory, he uses his legendary Spinzaku power to somehow One-Man-Army his way out of it. At college, we referred to it as the Suzaku Dodge. Any time the plot would be progressed forward in an epic fashion, apply Suzaku dodge, and we're back to start. XD
2: EVERYTHING ON THE PLANET WANTS TO SCREW LELOUCHE. It's like he's got to fight Planet Controlling Agent Smith every day in every battle, because SOMETHING will be arrayed against him during the fight that literally could not have been anticipated.
Now, meanwhile, Lelouche Lamprouge WON in the end for two reasons:
1: He just keeps getting back up. He has his epic emo moments where he wants to give it all up, but he ALWAYS gets back up.
2: He was willing to take over the world, ensure that everyone on the planet would hate his guts, and then see to it that he would be killed by Suzaku in such a fashion that there would never be another war for the same old reasons. It's hard to explain, but Lelouche basically sacrificed himself to end the cycle and give the world peace. It was kind of epic.
As you can no doubt tell by now, Neo and Lelouche are VERY similar. But at the end of the day, I put my money on Lelouche. Firstly because he's more believable than Keanu Reeves' wooden acting. Secondly because Neo handed himself up to a death-by-fusion to end the war, whereas Lelouche won a secret war to control the world, THEN gave himself up to death to ensure lasting world peace. He gave up being undisputed ruler of the entire world to ensure that everyone would be HAPPY. Neo sacrificed himself because there wasn't much of a choice left. Lelouche sacrificed himself because he HAD a choice, but he wanted to pick the one where he could actually make a difference for everyone.
It says more about Lelouche that he could be emperor of the entire world, or sacrifice himself so that EVERYONE could be happy, and he chose sacrifice instead. Neo was a character who could never make that choice. One way or the other, Lelouche will give the order, and Neo will not be able to refuse. Lelouche gave God the order to stop the end of the world, and he can give Neo the order to stand down and live a life of peace.
It's spirited, but sorry. No. First of all, Lelouche =/= Smith. That one's free. The fight would go all the way, but your argument hinges on a false premise, that Lelouche would make the same mistakes and moves Smith does, or even that he is equivalent to Smith. Point being, he wouldn't and he isn't.
ReplyDeleteThat premise neither allows for human behaviour (Smith isn't human, Lelouche definitely is), nor the irrational human thought patterns which allow for ingenuity, which Smith doesn't have. Know who does? All together now:
Lelouche.
Furthermore, your premise about Lelouch merging with anyone is again false. He doesn't merge. It's a simple mind control gimmick people have to carry out.
Going back to your Smith battle in the flooded crater, it's comparing apples to oranges here. For one thing, Lelouche can't merge with Neo, that was Smith's gimmick, not Lelouche's.
For another, Smith wanted a one-on-one fight. I don't think Lelouche would do that. To nip the obvious counterargument about geassed people fighting in the bud, Neo was perfectly willing to hurt the Smith clones, because it was Smith, but if it were his friends, with his friends' looks and his friends' faces? That's different. I can't imagine a scenario where Neo would want to hurt the people he's fighting for, geassed or not.
And finally, Neo didn't merge with Smith till the very end. Before then, he just never gave up and kept fighting even after Smith explained how hopeless the situation was. That's not "I resist your power". That's "I'm never gonna give up fighting". Biiig difference. Yes, he chooses to continue fighting, but that has nothing to do with resisting mind-affecting powers. In fact, since the Matrix as a whole is kind of mind-affecting, it makes Neo MORE susceptible, not less.
Oh, and that moment where Neo's glasses are off? You know, the crater portion? Perfect time for a geass and then a surrender.
Neo doesn't stand a chance. He can't resist the Geass because it's essentially a human move, not a machine one. The normal approach is useless. He can't merge with Lelouche because Lelouche doesn't merge. Going back to that scene, Smith merges with Neo. Neo doesn't merge. Tellingly, he also doesn't resist the merge, becoming Smith in his final moments before transcendence with absolutely no extra effort on the Smith end of things. So neither of them cancel each other out. He can't resist Lelouche's will control because Neo's never had to deal with a Freemind in a fight, as well as the reasons listed above. If you think about it, all his toughest opponents were programs, not humans. And Morpheus kicked his ass across a room.
Besides which, Lelouche mastered the Thanatos Gambit as well as all the others, so even if Neo wins, the moment he comes out of the Matrix or transcends, Lelouche will have done something to assure his own victory. The best result Neo can have is a draw
But say I buy you line of thinking and Lelouche does merge with everything and become the ultimate evil. Do you remember the very end of the movie? The one where the Matrix is fixed? Some might even say "rebooted"? Wouldn't the person in control of the entire Matrix be able to do that? And, since he's human, wouldn't he be able to survive where Smith didn't? Short answer, yes. Yes he would. Matrix reboots, and he just stays there, like all the other humans who didn't leave when it was rebooted.
In the end, the best Neo can hope for is a draw.
Being Cyberpunk Machine Jesus isn't enough to win the fight.
** Edited to remove a bad line of thinking. My point still stands.
Since Neo just wants peace, I think that order would be one he would gladly accept. Lelouche wins through (Mortal combat voice) CIVILITY!
ReplyDeleteAnd may I just say it's sincerely been a pleasure arguing with you, Oliver.
ReplyDeleteWait wait. Ok, so this whole battle hinges on Lelouche's ability to use the Geass. Well, this isn't part of my argument, but just because it was stated that it was a distance issue that made the knightmare geassing not work, here it is from Wikipedia.
ReplyDeleteEye contact, either direct or via a reflective surface, is required for commands to be issued. Eye contact through a screen or sensor (such as those on Knightmares) is insufficient. The maximum effective distance is 270 meters. It is the screen of the Knightmare that makes the Geass not work, not the distance.
Ok, with that out of the way, I have several problems with this line of arguing. One, Neo is not able to resist Smith just because he muscles through and keeps fighting, it is actually because he chooses to. Seriously, choice is a HUGE part of what makes the Matrix a good trilogy, and it is the CENTRAL attribute that defines Neo. He chooses to save Morpheus, he chooses the left door in the Arcitect's room, he saves Trinity and everybody else, and he chooses, at the end, to sacrifice himself.
This is not Neo just giving up here. He could have fought forever, he had that power, he was just choosing peace instead, a choice that is very hard, as we see with Lelouche, who chooses at the end to be killed so that there is peace.
My argument with the Geass actually goes to this: Commands must be issued verbally. Now, Neo is a great Gong Fu master, and people that are accustomed to fighting, especially in the Matrix, have long since stopped relying on their senses in a fight. He can cover his eyes and fight blindfolded, and resist the Siren's call of the Geass. Even if that doesn't work, how about this? Agent Smith makes it so Neo cannot talk. Now, given that Neo can smash Agents eight ways from Sunday, can't Neo manipulate the Matrix so that Lelouche cannot talk, or that his mouth is covered over? The rules say there is no Omniscience or Omnipresence, but they specifically say nothing about Omnipotence. He still has all his powers, he just can't think at you across the world and you die. Let's say he can only activate them in a certain range, he can get close to him, with his eyes closed, since there is nothing that says that power was eye dependant, and close Lelouche's mouth. Then all there is to do is hit him really hard with Matrix powers.
The Knightmare thing, while an oversight for me, has already been covered.
ReplyDeleteSecond, while Neo did choose here and there, a lot of it was already predestined. This is even lampshaded during the last fight with Smith, where Smith tells Neo that he's seen the exact moment before, down to where he's standing. Similarly, the Deus Ex Machina's pronouncement of "it is done" smacks of predestination, sort of saying "This is what was supposed to happen, and now it is over." So while Neo chose the METHOD, the OUTCOME remains the same.
And finally, Lelouche has demonstrated quite insane skills, using the shield/laser on his mech to hack things to bits, as well as understanding formation and probability, all of which speaks to a high proficiency with math. Since canon materials have shown us that the Matrix runs off of a DOS prompt, it is more than possible Lelouche could hack it with very little difficulty, and thus either cushion himself from the blow (the way Neo did in the Jump program), or find a way to unseal his mouth and vanish the blindfold quite easily. And then it would be time for a Geass. Or, similarly, he could fight Neo from his Knightmare to a standstill and then convince him to concede before anything else got destroyed. Lelouche would have literally infinite possibility, and thus fight Neo to a standstill.
Also, why are we now continuing to argue this moments after reaching an amicable consensus?
Part of me just wants Lelouche to win because I don't care much for Keanu Reeves, and that's all Neo makes me think about. There, I said it.
ReplyDeleteWhoa.
This is closed until the overturn time.
ReplyDelete